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 Why not modern? (Page 3)
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| Author | Topic: Why not modern? |
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whitespike Member |
posted 09-17-2003 08:07 AM
   
I understand and agree now Gary, but earlier your view on this, although lengthy, didn't express these types of people. It simply expressed McMansion owners, which i thought was unjust judgement, but perhaps the lunch did help to soften the criticism  And yes people like that are usually hopeless.Jonii, I think it is such a shame things like that happen. Do we live in America? Why can't we build OUR American dream on the land we own? Modernists have always been discriminated against it seems. I did not realize the level of it until on these boards. It seems so un-American and unconstitutional. I can't believe the law would even entertain the idea that someone can sue because they don't want something different around them. Isn't this the melting pot? Why don't I sue my coworkers for a lack of fashion sense, and standing near me? [This message has been edited by whitespike (edited 09-17-2003).] |
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whitespike Member |
posted 09-17-2003 08:09 AM
repeated [This message has been edited by whitespike (edited 09-17-2003).] |
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archibell Member |
posted 09-17-2003 09:33 AM
Jonii: They didn't really tear down that house did they? I had heard that they made some revisions to the facade (so that it didn't glow as much), but I didn't hear anything about tearing it down. On that front, I live in a pretty traditional town, but I have gotten to know the neighbors (thats what 4 block parties in a summer will do), and I am already 'warning' them of what I want to do and showed them some sketches. They are all excited to see what I do with the place. |
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jonii Member |
posted 09-17-2003 10:07 AM
No! They didn't make them tear it down, it was revisions... My point was: Why did they have to be sued in the first place? |
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lepage Junior Member |
posted 09-17-2003 10:16 AM
i agree that the discrimination is unjust and your analogy of suing someone with different fashion sense for standing next to you is spot on! (and it made me laugh) lepage |
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whitespike Member |
posted 09-17-2003 10:16 AM
Exactly Jonii. Why is that? And after all the money was spent, having to spend money to alter it against the design you wanted to begin with is absurd!!! I can't believe the law lets this happen! I don't like your suit so you have to pay to get it tailored to my tastes......it seems so strange and unjust! |
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L.A.kevin Member |
posted 09-17-2003 11:23 AM
Uh... maybe because they are (and probably mistakenly) worried about their property values diminishing??? |
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jonii Member |
posted 09-17-2003 11:52 AM
People are afraid of change. It's just human nature in general. I think right now "modernists" are a little to maverick for the "traditionalists". With everything that is going on right now (the "war", terrorism and lack of real leadership for our country...), I think people are looking toward the familiar. Sad. That family that got sued, I think they were in the south somewhere and not to offend anyone but my experience there has been that southerners are slow to change. Will fight it tooth and nail even, even when changing would be better and they know it. I wasn't surprised by the reaction of the people in the neighbourhood. Just outraged. I guess a building and your right to decide what yours looks like doesn't count as self expression and can't be protected under first amendment laws, huh? [This message has been edited by jonii (edited 09-17-2003).] |
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jonii Member |
posted 09-17-2003 11:58 AM
I just replied to a post on another thread and my reply got me thinking... Do you think americans cling to traditional styles (especially early american styles) because our country is so young? We're what? About 400-500 yrs old? It seems that Europe, which has a much longer history, than we do, embraces modernism much more readily. |
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L.A.kevin Member |
posted 09-17-2003 12:48 PM
Maybe part of it is that in the US, educationally, art is considered a fun playtime thing. Art is considered a more integral part of education in Europe and Japan. Kev |
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whitespike Member |
posted 09-17-2003 01:10 PM
[QUOTE]Originally posted by jonii: [B]not to offend anyone but my experience there has been that southerners are slow to change. Will fight it tooth and nail even, even when changing would be better and they know it. No offense taken. You are correct on this. In Mississippi, where I live, they spent a crazy amount of money on the debate on wether or not to change our flag (bc of the rebel flag that is within it). I was so happy that MS might make a step forward. After a lot of money and time wasted they kept it. Fortunately there is a circle of like minded people here into art/music/modernism. |
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cfcek2 Member |
posted 09-17-2003 01:35 PM
I think the resistance goes beyond southerners, though it is probably generally true. I am guessing that a lot of it has to do with rural vs. more urban environments. I live in central Illinois and it would probably be more opposed to change than, say, urban Atlanta or some such place. I can't really substantiate it, but that is just my feeling. It is probably why when people interested in modernism who decide to build a summer home or cabin somewhere in a rural area get fought at every turn. :: christy :: |
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jonii Member |
posted 09-17-2003 01:54 PM
Actually I live in urban atlanta and I'd have to say not a very modernist minded area. 99% of all new construction here is traditionally styled. I thought the guy whose house was on the cover of dwell last month was pretty cool for just that reason. My friend Brannon who is from the south and lives in Decatur (which might as well be atlanta...) says he thinks that the guy might have gotten less resistance because of the neighbourhood he chose. If it was south atlanta that's probably true. |
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marshallmayer Member |
posted 09-17-2003 02:09 PM
Where I live (in a Victorian in Montana), one of the things I most miss about summer (it's snowing here right now), is being able to sit on my front porch to have coffee and read the paper in the morning. I have the best conversations with walkers from my neighborhood that pass by. Those are over for another eight months. IMHO, outdoor living spaces are essential for neighboorhoods. On who we should be reaching out to, to make modernism more established/popular/available/whatever, our constraints have more to do with resources (or lack thereof) than with any theory of social change. Yes, I'd like to change everyone's minds about modernism, but I can't afford to. So I'd rather spend my limited resources on reaching out to those that need less convincing, i.e., are already close to modernism but need a little nudge. Sorry I've been offline for a while, but I am working on a website that I hope to announce later this week (the deadline keeps slipping, and it was summer here last week -- I was outside as much as possible!). What I'd like to know now is how do we reach those folks, cost effectively, that need that little nudge? I agree, I think it's time to JUST DO IT, but what first? Marshall |
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cfcek2 Member |
posted 09-17-2003 03:57 PM
jonii - that is so weird. i literally picked atlanta off the top of my head. kooky. anyway - i think the majority of new buildings are going to be traditional, but in a larger city you are just more likely to have like-minded people nearby. the larger number of people and proximity to cultural events, universities, etc. kind of dictates that. but i do understand what you are saying. and i agree with marshall - we should walk the walk if we are gonna talk the talk. YOU FIRST! :: christy :: |
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function group Member |
posted 09-17-2003 04:34 PM
going back to joes post much earlier - now that i work from home can I sit on my front porch if its concrete and pull out a Barcelona chair and drink a 40? Drinking during the day (but only after 3) is highly underated. Seriously I moved from more of a downtown urban enviroment to a neighborhood 3 miles from the city center. Since I began working from home i am amazed at the activity that goes on during the day right outside my windows. Neighbors walking, talking, kids playing, I drink gin and tonics on saturday afternoons with my 89 year old neighbor, and now that people know that I am at home (Im kind of in an aquarium and can be easily seen from the street) they seem to drop in without the slightest procovation. I am pretty much knocked out by the vibrancy that a suburban neighborhood has the potential of having. In saying this Im sure that it has to do with the neighborhood mix. We have many older couples who have been here since the neighborhood's inception (50's) , 4 architects, 2 gallery owners, and quite a few salespeople with young children. The older people in our neighborhood tell me how refreshing it is to see everyone out and about and creating a community- something that apparently has not been seen in this neighborhood since the '70's. Im just wondering if this is a generational thing as well as a geographic one. My cousin visited from London and said it was a bit too David Lynchish for him- he felt that everyone was a bit too friendly and cheerful and said that he kept waiting for a marching band to stroll down the street sorry to ramble- Chris |
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GaryR50 Member |
posted 09-17-2003 04:51 PM
Whitespike: Yep, I did say that, even if it wasn't exactly what I meant. We all do that, sometimes. It's easy to lump together McMansion owners, even though they are as varied a group as any, and have myriad reasons for buying the homes they own. I tend to think though, and I could be wrong, that a large number of them do think this way, to one degree or another. We've all met people who don't seem to get modernism, and I'm fairly certainly we've all run into the type who are very vocal in expressing their disdain of modernism, also. Drop into the Archinect forums and you'll find that even many architecture students have this attitude, as well. So it is an attitude that knows no boundaries, as far as education or affluence goes. You'll find it in all strata of society. As for our letigious society, you can sue anyone for anything these days. It seems to be the American way of dealing with people whom you feel have done you wrong - even when they haven't. Some of the people I was just talking about are so adamantly opposed to modernism they will sue over any attempt to include a modernist home in their neighborhood. It's the old "not in my backyard" reaction, usually reserved for convicted pedophiles, prisons, and toxic waste dumps. Frankly, I am always amazed that some people can have such a strong negative reaction to modernism. These are people whose minds have been so thoroughly programmed to accept that the term "house" means something that looks like it was built by our ancestors that are unable to comprehend any alternatives. It's no surprise that the same people resist alternatives in just about everything. L.A. Kevin has a valid point when he says that people like this are worried about their property values diminishing, and I have to agree that's a part of it, but you have to consider that property values have a great deal to do with people's perceptions. Not only the perceptions of potential future buyers of a property, but the perceptions of the residents, also. It may very well be that someone would be delighted to buy a modern house, yet the residents, because they themselves wouldn't do so, can't conceive of anyone else doing such a thing. It's the old phenomenon of people believing that everyone thinks the same way they do. When you believe that, you tend to think no one else could possibly disagree with your own tastes. This is probably also a part of the negative reaction some people have toward modernism, in the first place. They see it as a contradiction of their own tastes and values, and they can't tolerate such affrontery. Whitespike is correct about the south, in general. Southerners, perhaps more so than people in other regions, are very much tied to tradition. It is easy for the more zealous among them to get carried away with it and to assume tat anything modern or contemporary is an attempt to destroy "our traditional way of life." This isn't confined to Mississippi, either; it's prevalent throughout the south and southwest. There are some folks like this up north, too, though, especially in rural New England, and most especially in Maine, Vermont and New Hampshire. In a way, being one who is ineterested in genealogy and history, I can understand their viewpoint, though I certainly don't make it such a part of my life that it extends to everything I think and do. An appreciation of history doesn't have to conflict with a love of modernism and a eagerness for change. Gary |
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whitespike Member |
posted 09-18-2003 08:40 AM
Do you think people will accept modernism in 200+ years when they can call it a historical style? Maybe since in the scheme of things it is so young people still won't accept it. True change takes a long time. Maybe we just haven't met our evolution yet. Perhaps the same reason people hate the US? Just a thought.... |
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archibell Member |
posted 09-18-2003 09:25 AM
quote:
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GaryR50 Member |
posted 09-18-2003 10:15 AM
Actually, modernism has already become an "historical style," at least in the minds of some people (i.e., preservationists and those who are collecting mid-century modern houses). In another 50 years, what I'm designing now will be "historical." Gad! What a thought! Gary |
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whitespike Member |
posted 09-18-2003 10:51 AM
Well I know that real modernism is anti-aging, but to the masses it is just another style. For some reason things don't become wanted by the public unless it is old. I just meant it is relatively young compared to some other styles that people are into. I just wonder if it will be more accepted then... [This message has been edited by whitespike (edited 09-18-2003).] |
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lavardera Member |
posted 09-18-2003 11:59 AM
Not before McMansions go on the historic register I'm afraid! |
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beckyjoburke Junior Member |
posted 09-18-2003 07:41 PM
quote: Hi all. my husband and I have been lurking for some time, but kind of want to wade in on this subject. I suggest that, perhaps this is cyclical. We have a modern revolution in 1915-30s, a backlash to Victorian. We have another modern spurt mid-late 1950s, I suggest as another generational backlash, again in the 80s, where I suggest that 'cold' was more the style of modern that time as opposed to modern being cold. Now again another generation sick of Country Living magazine and that horrid blue it produced on every mailbox across the US. Our other thought is, is it just the US that is...reluctant to embrace modern? I recall driving across Europe and not seeing much modern until we hit Koln, Germany, which was heavily bombed and had many fantastic examples of modern circa WW2. anyway, hi! |
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beckyjoburke Junior Member |
posted 09-18-2003 07:55 PM
anyway, hi![/B][/QUOTE] oh, and I'm much more likely to ovulate over corbusier |
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marshallmayer Member |
posted 09-19-2003 03:44 PM
Hi there again, In conjunction with the announcement of the availability of the LV Home (see my earlier post ), I wanted to let folks know about what I can do for the movement to JUST DO IT! I love it that we don't cede to Nike sole ownership of this mantra. Here and on another Dwell board thread, it seems there is consensus that creating a "network" to connect consumers to producers of modern housing products is key to creating a large and vibrant market for modernist housing. And it seems that without a lot of resources to throw at the network, the internet is a necessary (but not in and of itself sufficient) part of the strategy to conduct outreach to all modernists. For the past six weeks, I've been building LiveModern, a website to help promote and sell the LV Home. As I was building the website, there were also a bunch of conversations on this site about what funcionalities a "network" website should include. I've taken a first stab at the functionality that could be part of a "network" site, and you can see that now as you poke around the LiveModern website. The primary feature is the establishment of directories, as I think simply finding each other and what we have in common is the biggest challenge we face. What I've done, however, is simply set up a simple structure, and it -- as well as the whole concept of the site -- needs to be verified by the community before proceeding much further. I'd be happy to help the community proceed. Also note that I've included the mission statement that was posited as the founding document of the emerging network. I helped draft the statement, and would be happy to facilitate more discussion on LiveModern about how our mission and vision can be realized. I suggest as an immediate next step that the conversation on how best to proceed start on the reproduced mission statement page (at the bottom -- yes, it's another new tool!). Those that participate now will be on the ground floor of building a home of our own. Marshall [This message has been edited by marshallmayer (edited 09-19-2003).] |
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GaryR50 Member |
posted 09-19-2003 11:25 PM
Now, that's a thought; McMansions becoming "historic" homes. It's so absurd, to me, because they were built to mimmic historic homes, in the first place! There is a development here in Edmond that is called something-or-other "historic homes" and everything there is brand new construction, but it copies (badly) styles from the 19th century. So, in the future, I guess we'll have historic copies of historic copies of historic homes, then? Gary |
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jonii Member |
posted 09-20-2003 02:32 AM
Is the McMansion a style? Or is it just a size? Something to think about. Thanks for, uh, sharing the website... I think you should have posted on just a few more threads though... |
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GaryR50 Member |
posted 09-20-2003 12:27 PM
Well, the term "McMansion" is one I first encountered here on the Dwell forums. To me it conjures up associations with the cheap, trivial, plastic toys that come with your cheap, trivial plastic food at McDonald's. But, to answer your question, the term is usually meant to suggest both traditional styles and large sizes, though it can also be applied to more modest sizes, as well. In a way, "McMansion" almost suggests a smaller, cheaper, watered down version of the 19th century homes of the captains of industry, seen on the show "America's Castles," except that these mini-mansions they're building these days are really bad copies, with elements that are out of scale, and with various elements from several styles and periods. Gary |
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megamail Member |
posted 09-24-2003 08:57 PM
quote: This is why I prefer to use the term "Herman Houses" ala Herman Munster sized homes that are out of scale with their surroundings and sometimes a bit clumbsy in their design. Herman Houses - isn't that more fun |
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GaryR50 Member |
posted 09-25-2003 07:01 AM
Hmmm, I hadn't heard that one, Megamail. It may be a little obscure for most folks, though. I wouldn't have established the link with Herman Munster, myself, if you hadn't told us first. For some reason, "McMansion" seems almost universally understandable, though, as something that is cheap (not price-wise), tawdry, or in bad taste. They're using "McMansion" on the Archinect boards, too, independently of any influence from the Dwell boards, by the way, so I think it has spread into more popular usage, at least among architects and others who are concerned with the issue. I've even heard it used offline, locally, by an architect I know. Gary |
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whitespike Member |
posted 09-25-2003 07:55 AM
I used the term McMansion in front of a non-design type person the other day forgetting that it was a 'Dwell" word. Strangley enough, he seemed to know what it was immediately and started laughing. |
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lavardera Member |
posted 09-25-2003 09:13 AM
Any client I have used this in front of understands immediately. The Prefix "Mc" and what inflection it is intended to project on the noun it is attached to is a pretty well understood concept. |
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cfcek2 Member |
posted 09-25-2003 02:43 PM
i had heard it before i visited the boards and i have since heard it refer to lots of things to imply the same thing. big, thoughtless, fakey, etc. think branson, missouri = mctown.  :: christy :: |
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GaryR50 Member |
posted 09-25-2003 03:35 PM
So have I, Christy; to mean fake or phony, that is. I have seen it in print and heard people refer to such things as "Mc"______ (fill in the blank). Like calling a Honda Civic with a coffee can exhaust and wing spoiler a "McRace Car." Actually, those are referred to as "ricers." Gary |
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modernlover Member |
posted 09-25-2003 04:41 PM
Funnily enough, when I was growing up in NYC, my friends and I used to say "McBurgerQueen" in reference to ANY fast food restaurant (hundreds of 'em). Somebody'd ask, "So where do you guys wanna eat?" and we'd reply "Let's do McBurgerQueen!" Of course, an argument would ensue about where to go, and the winner was usually the person with the most money (we always shared our money when it came to food). This is why I now refer to almost all newer architecture as McMansion style. There's just so much crap out there, it's astonishing sometimes...... |
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joe b Member |
posted 09-25-2003 11:41 PM
"crap in, crap out" a phrase used for fast food AND bad design. |
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