posted 06-27-2003 06:03 AM               

Gary

[This message has been edited by GaryR50 (edited 06-27-2003).]

[This message has been edited by GaryR50 (edited 06-27-2003).]

posted 06-27-2003 06:27 AM               

Watch out for that evil corporation, now.

posted 06-27-2003 06:45 AM               

I can make t-shirts or something.

posted 06-27-2003 08:40 AM               

Mike Hand

posted 06-27-2003 08:01 PM               

What are the top three goals of this organization? I like the idea of being a clearinghouse, but isn't one major problem that developers do not trust that the market exists?

My suggestion for one goal:
Finding people interested in living in modern homes to indicate the size of the market.

This may be as simple as getting some stats on Dwell circulation.

posted 06-27-2003 10:50 PM               

In addition to defining the size and scope of the market, we need to find out how many builders are currently involved in, or have been involved in building modernist homes, either singly, or in numbers. Some of this research could be done by getting information on the builders of existing modernist houses, where that information is available.

More readily determined is the number of architects and designers who are either doing modernist stock plans, or are interested in doing so. One source I've noted, recently, is the Seattle Case Study Homes book, which is a planbook of modernist houses by various architects and designers. The book lists the email addresses of all of them, so I could contact them directly to find out their level of interest.

I think once we have data on these three key groups, we'll have a better idea as to the feasibility of such an organized effort.

Gary

posted 06-28-2003 08:22 PM               

There seems to be no shortage of architects interested in designing modern homes. It does seem to me that that makes them the most and least important first step. Least important because they would be the easiest group to get on board. Most important because they are the ones that know who the developers and builders interested in modern design are and also the ones that might be able to demonstrate that modern homes can be built for less than $200 per sq. ft.

There is a builder in Dallas (www.urbanedgeusa.com) that has done several smaller projects. I tried to contact her to ask about her opinion on the feasibility of doing a small sub-division (10-20 homes) but she ignored my email (and I was about as polite, complimentary, and humble as I could muster). Maybe an architect/residential designer would have better luck.

posted 06-30-2003 05:58 AM               

1) Identifying individuals as mentioned above...Dwell subscriber lists, etc.

2) Doing our own research.

Appending demographic data from a subscriber's database only tells part of story. There is a qualitative aspect of formulating a mission, business plan, and vision that cannot be gleaned from looking at profiles.

What I would do is follow the research path that we do in my business:

- Formulate a thesis of what we actually would like to discover: what is the market, what does modern mean to people, etc.

- Do some limited qualitative research (i.e. a "Webinar" or the dreaded focus groups) in order to give us insight into the direction we ought to do our heavier research.

- Put together a comprehensive, but not cumbersome, survey covering specifics on how we could move this initiative forward, and what people would want. Find a sponsor (Dwell?) who would allow us to do a pop-up survey to every N'th visitor to their site (I know, everyone HATES popups, but on a high-traffic site, you still get enough participation to give you good data), or some other method. Internet-based surveys are inexpensive to administer, and I might just volunteer to do the analysis.

posted 06-30-2003 06:43 AM               

quote:

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Originally posted by Rous:
When I mentioned getting stats on Dwell subscribers, I actually meant more than their numbers. I am not sure the Fruitbowl Manifesto mentioned changing the world, but it sure would be nice if Dwell could do something to help out in this regard.

They not only know where (at least generally) 150,000 issues of Dwell end up each month, but they also have a publication that reaches at least 150,000 readers each month. This board is great, but only a few dozen people are actively involved (and only 5 have posted to this thread). Other Dwell readers need to know that there might be a way for us to actually get together and try to change the world.

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Good points, Rous. I wish it were economical to get a copy of Dwell's subscriber list, but I'm sure it would cost a bit. We'd have to buy their mailing list, and that would probably cost a few thousand dollars.

I've also observed that, out of their subscribers, very few are using the message boards. In fact, some of the people who post here may not necessarily be Dwell subscribers, though I think most of us are. The trouble is, of those who are both subscribers and message board regulars, some are either architects/designers, and a few are actually looking for a modernist home, but with varying degrees of enthusiasm.

Still, I think it's a rational conclusion that most of the people who are collecting modern furniture are also potential prospects for a modernist house. The trouble is knowing exactly who they are and where they are. Maybe if Dwell could do some sort of a survey of their readers, broken down by geographic area, that would help, to some extent. It wouldn't provide specific names and addresses, but it might, at least, show where, regionally, the highest demand is. How about it, Allison?

Usonian has some good suggestions, also, but I can see the costs soaring out of sight, here. I was hoping to keep this to a level that can be supported with a free website, rather than attempting to make this a business. I already have one business, and I'm just trying to find out where there are some builders to connect with who share my goal of doing modernist subdivisions. I think that can be accomplished mostly via research, and doesn't need to become cost-intensive. Honestly, I can't afford to spend any money on this, at this time. Also, it isn't necessary to locate every like-minded builder in the country; just enough to make a start with. Of course, everything I discover, I'll pass on, and that's what the "clearinghouse" or website idea was all about. I guess I should have clarified this a little better. I'm just doing some research on builders, specifically those who may be looking for architects/designers who can provide modernist plans. I'm not intending to start a national non-profit organization.

Gary

[This message has been edited by GaryR50 (edited 06-30-2003).]

posted 06-30-2003 07:56 AM               

The best case scenario would be for Dwell to have a cover story on the problem we have been discussing, highlightling developers who might be interested, and including a survey that readers could send in. With data from the survey and a few interested developers, we could get the clearinghouse started. The stock plans would be a great fit since "Dwellers" need to be able to point to something they like and developers need to see something concrete they might consider building (I wish the Seattle Case Study houses were online).

posted 06-30-2003 08:14 AM               

Archibell, we'd be glad to have whatever input you can muster. Since this is really more a matter of research, followed up by direct contact, it's something we can all share. I'm using mostly the internet for my research, so far. I could call local builders and developers, but, I happen to know most, if not all of them, are entirely devoted to the "McMansion" market.

posted 06-30-2003 10:03 AM               

Greg, I'm just making it up as I go along. I wish there was a precedent for this, but I seriously doubt it exists. It would be nice if we could ask someone who's done it before, but then, if we could, we wouldn't need to do it, since it would already exist, right?

Gary

posted 06-30-2003 01:20 PM               

In any case, if there is any convincing to be done, providing evidence of the market's potential is a necessary first step.

posted 07-01-2003 05:18 AM               

Good point, Rous. It may be they are running up against the same kinds of impediments we've been discussing on other threads, i.e., reluctant bankers, indifferent or antagonistic housing authorities, etc. Or, it could be they just haven't found it as profitable, and so, haven't pursued it with much effort.

Getting the dissatisifed McMansion developer to modify his plans to modernism is one idea, but not a particularly good one, as it creates designs that may not necessarily be as good as a modernist house designed from scratch as a modernist house (as opposed to being simply clad as one). It also cuts me and other architects/designers out of the equation, defeating my purpose in doing this at all.

Pessimism aside, I'm convinced there are some developers and builders doing smaller modernist spec developments. There may be only a few, but I suspect there are some that are flying under the radar, so to speak. The most visible are the ones we've already uncovered. It may be harder to find the rest, but I believe they do exist.

As for the market and builders' perceptions of it, while they may have formed an opinion that their local market doesn't support this on a larger scale, it may just as well be that there are people nearby who would be prospects for modern houses, but that the two simply aren't aware of each other's existence. Maybe a goal of this project can be to make the presence of such builders more noticable (something I'm sure the builders would appreciate) to those who might want a modern house, and we can also have a "waiting list" of people who have expressed a sincere interest in owning such a house. This could all reside on a website where builders could become aware of the market for their work and homebuyers could become aware that there is a way to acheive their goal of owning a modernist house. Granted, it will take a lot of time and effort to establish this, but I think it's a worthy task. Maybe even Dwell might become interested, at some point, and help out with some publicity (hint, hint).

posted 07-01-2003 06:36 AM               

quote:

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It also cuts me and other architects/designers out of the equation, defeating my purpose in doing this at all.

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Here is where I am a bit of an optimist. I would hope that the McMansion developers interested in modern that our organization would attract would also be interested in higher quality design. If not, I see part of our role as bringing architects together with the developers to convince them. In any case they would need to get plans from somwhere. That would mean either using modern stock plans as a basis or hiring architects to do something like what KRDB did in Waco (they designed 5 plans which could be oriented multiple ways on a lot).

quote:

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[I]t may just as well be that there are people nearby who would be prospects for modern houses, but that the two simply aren't aware of each other's existence. Maybe a goal of this project can be to make the presence of such builders more noticable (something I'm sure the builders would appreciate) to those who might want a modern house, and we can also have a "waiting list" of people who have expressed a sincere interest in owning such a house. This could all reside on a website where builders could become aware of the market for their work and homebuyers could become aware that there is a way to acheive their goal of owning a modernist house.

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posted 07-01-2003 08:01 AM               

Usonian, thanks for the link. I'll check it out. By the way, I was at Barnes & Noble Saturday night and saw their magazine on the rack. I'll have to go sneak a peek at it.

Gary

posted 07-01-2003 10:14 AM               

Usonian: I had a look at that American Giggolo, er, Bungalow site. You know, I think the popularity of the Craftsman/Bungalow style is really just an offshoot of the rise in popularity of McMansions, in general during the last ten years, since it is a traditional/historical style. So, I don't know if it would be useful to emulate what they've done, necessarily.

Gary

posted 07-02-2003 06:42 AM               

A good approach may also be to find a land developer who is willing to sell lots and not be part of the building phase (someone who buys the land, subdivides it, and puts in the infrastructure ie. roads, sewers, etc.) Then a design-build firm/stock plan association can sign purchase agreements to buy the lots and sell them to the future home-owner along with the home.

A land developer should be willing to do something like this if the land sales are at their normal absorption rate. Perhaps they would take a lower profit margin since they can insure the sale of the lots. They won't care much what is going to be built if they know it is sold.

This also allows the design-build firm to stay out of the land developing side and focus more on their own areas of expertise.

posted 07-02-2003 07:50 AM               

Gary

posted 07-02-2003 08:13 AM               

But, there have also been some New Urbanist projects, like the Middleton Hills development in Madison, and Cobblestone Lake here in the Twin Cities, that are built with houses designed more sensitively and sized more reasonably.

posted 07-02-2003 12:36 PM               

quote:

---

A good approach may also be to find a land developer who is willing to sell lots and not be part of the building phase (someone who buys the land, subdivides it, and puts in the infrastructure ie. roads, sewers, etc.) Then a design-build firm/stock plan association can sign purchase agreements to buy the lots and sell them to the future home-owner along with the home.

---

This may be the answer, but it won't be easy. When this type of development is put together, there are generally (always) restrictions set up to ensure modern homes are not part of the development. In order to make this work, we would need to be able to convince developers that it is feasible to do a development with modern homes.

How do you do this? Get a group of people willing to put down deposits together to contact a developer (including design/build firms). So. How do we do that?

A note on Susanka: On an NPR interview she mentioned that one reason she does not like formal dining rooms is "they add $40,000 to $80,000 to the cost of a house." At 200 sq. ft. that works out to $200-$400 per sq. ft. Not exactly in my league.

[This message has been edited by Rous (edited 07-02-2003).]

posted 07-02-2003 12:52 PM               

Well, the whole point is to do modernist developments, not to invade McMansion developments, so the possibility of modernism being excluded is nil. If anything, we could set up our own covenants to keep McMansions out.

Newmod: What I have in mind is connecting architects, builders, developers and homebuyers with each other. All this requires is a website, promoted well, both online and offline. It doesn't involve doing any development ourselves, and, while a book might help to promote it, it may not be necessary or economically feasible. It would simply be a clearinghouse, a place where all of the parties needed to make it happen could come to make contact with each other and to coordinate any mutual activities from. By creating a forum for the specific purpose of promoting modernist residential development, architects and designers can find builders and developers wanting to buy modernist house plans, builders and developers can find homebuyers who are looking for modernist houses, and homebuyers can find either modernist architects and designers, or modernist developments to buy a house in. This doesn't have to be a complex, expensive operation at all. Just connect everyone together and let them do what each does best.

One more thought: we could have advertising on this site, from architects and designers like Greg and I, and from builders, developers, etc. Ther could also be a classifieds section and/or a message board.

Gary

[This message has been edited by GaryR50 (edited 07-02-2003).]

posted 07-02-2003 07:07 PM               

I'm with you on covenants. I only mentioned them above to illustrate the point that, in a modernist development, modernism isn't going to be excluded, like it would be if you tried to build modernist houses in a McMansion neighborhood. I'm all for modernist developments that allow all modernist styles. I would think no sane McMansion lovers would ever want to build among them, so restricting them wouldn't really be necessary, especially if you sold all the lots in advance to people who want modernist houses. My aim is to make these houses as affordable as possible so that people who want them can buy them.

By the way, we can discuss prices off the boards.

Gary

posted 07-02-2003 07:35 PM               

We are not looking for somebody who addressed the same topic, but somebody who has organized an effort, who had seen the best methods to get a message out, and could give us some insight.

posted 07-02-2003 08:53 PM               

Say we set up a web site where people can register if they are interested in living in a modern home/development. When they register they fill out a survey that includes questions about their geographic location, price range, size of house they want (1, 2, 3 bedrooms etc.), etc.

For any geographic location, a developer could look at the survey results to get a sense of what people are looking for (but email addresses would be kept seperate from the data). Then, a developer interested in putting something together could email everyone in that region to let them know what they are planning and provide contact information (again, I don't think we let the developers see any email addresses).

At the same time, developers, architects, and stock plan designers, could register and provide links to their web sites so that potential home buyers and developers could see what's out there.

There would also have to be a section that provides information on government assistance for projects (I think the KRDB houses in Austin benefited from local government programs).

Am I completely off base or is this about what you were thinking about Gary? I am sure it has lots of flaws, but we have to start somewhere.

It is pretty clear to me that the key to something like this succeeding is people finding out about it and using it.