posted 07-19-2003 07:22 AM               

Although I agree with Greg that 'modern' is a better word, I can see where people might confuse the meaning.

posted 07-19-2003 07:30 AM               

I prefer the use of the term modernist over modern, for many of the same reasons Gary has. I'd rather explain what modernism is, rather explain what modern is not, or "that's not what we mean by modern."

posted 07-19-2003 10:42 AM               

However, if blah.com takes the attitude that only development approved by Greenpeace (a group I belong to, btw), should be supported, then I don't think we (blah.com) have much of a future. I think we need to be a resouce for those that want to develop affordable, sustainable, environmentally friendly development, but we also need to be a resouce for the wealthy, and the McMansion developer that wants to give Modern a try (e.g. the developer that hired KRDB in Waco).

I just think we need to be as broadbased as possible if we want to succeed.

[This message has been edited by Rous (edited 07-19-2003).]

posted 07-19-2003 12:12 PM               

For reasons I've already elaborated in these boards many times in the last few months, I disagree with Rous' doom and gloom viewpoint. I don't see where proposing the spread of modernist housing is any way ushering in the end of the world as we know it, any more than allowing McMansions to proliferate is, either. The fact is, mankind only inhabits less than a tenth of the world's land area, and we have natural resources to last thousands of years. Enough said.

posted 07-19-2003 03:33 PM               

Gary[/B][/QUOTE]

OHMIGOD, man, you are so WAY off base, it just blows me away.

posted 07-19-2003 06:03 PM               

While I think more should be done to protect the environment, I do not believe that the price of oil is going to be $300 per barrel in 20 years or that western culture is necessarily on the path to destruction.

posted 07-19-2003 07:15 PM               

All that said, I think a big part of this is raising awareness of design in general, and as a function of that trying to expose people to a process of making thoughtful decisions. I think that plays towards sustainability and building good communities. But these issues don't have a parallel to modern architecture in a way that, say, modern furniture does, so I think we have to remain neutral.

As for the discussion of terms: modern vs modernist, affordability, etc...I've only been trying to simply voice my opinion. I think the text has been well adapted to our comments so far so I'll just react to the next draft.

PS: Lets not get into a debate over the fate of the earth here, but I think Archibell might appreciate if we did over there - the thread has not had a lot of posts, and he was thoughtful enough to not muck up the progress being made here by pressing the issue in this thread.

posted 07-20-2003 07:07 AM               

Is there anything in particular in the text of the second draft that would suggest we are narrowing our approach using an environmental filter? I just want to be clear as I do the thrid draft, and the more specific reference to problem language the better.

posted 07-20-2003 08:06 AM               

Again I am not trying to make the work you've done more difficult just something I rememeber. I think the use of the term "Modernist" in the electronic world of today stands out better as something new (although it isn't) keyword searches run the show today. Truthfully, it is in the spirit of Modernist architecture is it not?

Another observation which I thought was funny the reference to Blah.com..hahaha...I was curious and looked it up it's a Verizon Wireless service...

Finally, on the subject of Prefab and Affordability. I have dug into a few of the Prefab ideas out there and I was very interested in this course for my self. However, I was not able to find something that with a lot was going to end up below 225k to meet my needs anyway. So although I think we expect even Prefab to be more affordable and you might get a little more for your money, I agree with Gary 225K-250K is average these days not high or low...merely average for stick built, modernist, Prefab and quite possibly even Container in the long run. I see this in Minneapolis where I live now, Charlotte where I used to live, Miami where my folks live etc...

posted 07-20-2003 10:41 AM               

Now back to the relevent discussion. As for the McMansion developer who may be thinking of doing something modern (are there any?), that's fine. In what way are we being so exclusionary as to prohibit their input? I don't see anything in the manifesto Marshall has written that excludes anyone. However, let me remind you that the main thrust of this whole effort is to promote modernism, so necessarily, it is modernism that will be emphasized. Otherwise, what is the point of our efforts?

Gary

posted 07-20-2003 11:36 AM               

I guess I was under the impression that the "manifesto" we have been working on would continue to be a working document once we started the new thread and tried to get more people involved (as part of the aformentioned "Transparency"... or whichever one of the other values). I was just wondering what our reaction would be if new participants wanted blah.com to have more of an anti-sprawl, pro sustainable development flavor. However, I was not advocating anything of the kind.

Sorry for the confusion.

posted 07-21-2003 03:26 AM               

Modernlover, I merely suggested that this thread is not the place for starting a new subject that will ramble on for pages, detracting from our original purpose. This is exactly what I warned against earlier in the thread. I do not want to see this degenerate into a thread that goes nowhere and, ultimately, into inaction, as it did when we started the "Association" thread, months ago. If there is ever going to be a coherent market for modernism, it must be organized so that all the participants of the market know who and where the others are. Otherwise, twenty years from now, people will still be scratching their heads and wondering why there aren't very many modernist houses, and why all of them that do exist seem to be built for billionaires.

Greg, yes, the term "modernist" does speak more of a style, and that is exactly why I use it. The average person thinks of architecture this way, in terms of styles, and if you use the term "modern" they will think you mean "contemporary." Keep in mind, many of the people we'll be dealing with don't understand the difference.

Gary

posted 07-21-2003 05:35 AM               

Firt off, People who like modern will not stay away because they think we are all about contemporarys or something - they will check it out modern or modernist. So there is no risk of losing them.

Second: I don't think people have a misunderstanding of what modernism is - I think they have No understanding! If somebody who does not understand takes a look because they think it is all about bad contemporary McMansions - all the better because we have just exposed somebody new to what Modern is really about.

I think one of the side affects of this organziation will be that it educates people about what modern is, just as Dwell magazine does. People who get involved will soon learn.

posted 07-21-2003 08:31 AM               

I've been away from my computer, mostly, as we are going through a record heat wave and Montana houses usually do not have air conditioning. At least mine doesn't (an 1890 vintage Victorian, mostly restored and updated).

I'll post a third draft in the next 90 minutes. Sorry for the delay.

posted 07-21-2003 10:07 AM               

What I've tried to do is strike a delicate balance on the key issues of affordability and modern(ism). I followed Greg's lead on affordability, and used Gary's definition. As for modern(ism), see what I've done. Also note that I've introduced a goal: to "make modernism more affordable."

[Stepping out of facilitator role...] The reason most people want to use modern instead of modernism is that the former is more inclusive. I think as an ourtreach tool, this is necessary. But I also think that modernism is what we are all about, a goal that can be met with more people in the fold if we use modern more often. I'm not proposing that we hoodwink anyone into getting in bed with us, but simply acknowledge that modernism is a subset of modern.

The reason I like modernism is that is is both a conscious departure from tradition (that's the actual definition of the movement, both then and now) and it is a lifestyle that affirms that break at every turn (including associated lifestyles, like sustainability, without *requiring* specific lifestyle changes). So, While I think it's all well and good to be "modern" -- and most other people do a well, especially in their consumption habits (including McMansions) -- I think what we really want is that break with tradition. We can use the former is a means to an end.

[OK, back to facilitating...] Anyway, see what I've done to strike the balance. I'm sure we'll need a bit more discussion, but that's the purpose of this forum now. We'll need to defend our ideas in ever-widening publics, and refine them accordingly. Perhaps we can reach some consensus on this today, and start a new thread (with invitations) tomorrow.

Marshall

P.S. If you don't see a change that you or someone else recommended, there may or may not be a good reason for it. Raise it again, and I'll respond.

--

You’re invited to an Open House for Affordable Modernism

“I’m looking for housing that is affordable, and modern. I know there must be innovative, well-designed housing out there. I just can’t seem to find it!”
Tracey R., from the Dwell discussion board

Our love for modernist housing is being rekindled as many more people deliberately depart from traditional housing. People want homes that are distinguished by their openness and livability through the use of innovative design, materials and construction methods. And they want modern homes whose cost is comparable to more traditional housing available in their community.

Affordable modernism is no longer an oxymoron! Small, entrepreneurial companies eager to address this emerging market are beginning to offer modern housing products again. However, the market remains small, and it can be difficult for consumers to find housing that matches their desires. Similarly, it is hard for developers and others in the housing industry to know what lots of consumers demand for modernist housing. There is no one best place online to find them all: modern housing designers or developments, consumers or communities.

Blah.com is a service that helps connect the public interested in modern housing to a range of independent providers, including architects, manufacturers, builders, lenders, and realtors, among others. Our goal is to make modernism more affordable. Blah.com looks forward to a future in which modernist housing is widely available because it is affordable to a majority of home buyers, and it is easy to find in their community.

To realize our mission and vision, Blah.com will initially focus on three broad strategies:
• conduct outreach to and education for consumers to introduce them to the options for modern housing, thereby demonstrating to potential producers the size of the market for affordable modernism;
• develop a cooperative marketing infrastructure, including conducting market research about consumer demand, for producers of modernist housing; and
• link Blah.com members to each other in geographically-defined markets, connecting modern home buyers to producers -- designers, developers, contractors and realtors, among others.

All of these strategies will reinforce each other, thus continually expanding the market for producers as well as consumers. In the implementation of each of these strategies, Blah.com will exemplify the values that distinguish successful communities of interest in emerging markets: transparency, accountability, openness, fairness, cooperation and civility.

The principle benefit for consumers and producers alike is that they will be able to find each other through Blah.com. Initially, a couple interested in building a modern house will be able to more easily find an architect or stock plan to suit their needs. As the Blah.com community grows and becomes more diverse, consumers will similar interests in a geographic market will be able to organize demand for a modernist housing development, while architects or manufacturers will be able to work with local developers to meet localized demand.

Blah.com is a community of consumers and producers of modern housing dedicated to this mission and vision, as well as strategies and values. Membership is free and open to anyone that agrees with our approach and is interested in accessing and developing the market for modernist housing. Membership includes a free subscription to the Blah.com enewsletter.

You are invited to join Blah.com by participating in our charter discussions on the Dwell discussion board (http://interverse.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000173.html). Be sure to invite your friends and colleagues. Feel free post this invitation in any appropriate forum.

For the time being, Blah.com is an informal community organized in the Dwell forum. In the near future, Blah.com will begin work on it’s primary strategies, including establishing an organizational identity, structure and website.

Come to our Open House now to make our new community a place you’d want to live.

posted 07-21-2003 10:20 AM               

Greg, my use of the term "modernist," as opposed to "modern" is simply to clarify, for the purpose of not having to stop and explain what I mean by "modern" every time the word is used. I have no fear that anyone wil be driven away, regardless of which term is used. It is simply a matter of convenience, that's all. As I said before, if the consensus is that we should use "modern," then that is what we'll use. Personally, I don't care for the term because it is inexact and has multiple meanings, depending upon who is using it. Also, if you think people have no understanding of modernism at all, why use the term they are most familiar with (modern), when that simply invites misunderstanding? But, I agree that we'll certainly be playing an educational role, and, yes, as soon as anyone takes a look at the site, it will be readily apparent exactly what we mean by "modern."

I am not in any way, shape or form advocating or saying that "modernist" or "modern" or "modernism" is a style, or that it can or should be applied as one. Anyone who takes a good look at a modernist (modern, if you insist, although Dwell uses the terms interchangably) house must certainly realize right away that it is structurally dissimilar to any McMansion, and it is the structure, itself, that drives the design. It is not simply a veneer to be applied as a skin. Anyone who would think this is what I am doing, or that this is what I am advocating or talking about simply hasn't paid attention.

Marshall, just curious; what do you consider a "heat wave" up there? Here in Oklahoma, we've had triple digit temperatures for about two weeks or so, now, with the highs reaching 105 to 109, so far. Not having AC in my neck of the woods is a death sentence.

Gary

posted 07-21-2003 10:25 AM               

Our only saving grace is that there is no humidity, so temperatures drop 40 degrees at night.

posted 07-21-2003 05:59 PM               

A few minor comments:

quote:

---

Our love for modernist housing...

---

As a non-designer/non-architect, my take on the modern/modernist issue is that anyone that is confused with one term, won't find the other any more illuminating. I vote for using the two interchageably.

quote:

---

And they want modern homes whose cost is comparable to more traditional housing available in their community.

---

Great way to define affordability. You mention of affordability later was just right.

quote:

---

Similarly, it is hard for developers and others in the housing industry to know what lots of consumers demand for modernist housing.

---

For some reason, the second 1/2 of this sentence caught me and I had to read it a few time to get it. It might just be me.

quote:

---

Blah.com is a service that helps connect the public interested in modern housing to a range of independent providers, including architects, manufacturers, builders, lenders, and realtors, among others.

---

If you have consciously excluded developers from the list, I am fine with that. When I think of developers in this context, I am thinking about KRDB and the more traditional developers that hired them to help develop the land outside Waco. I am fine with it the way it is.

quote:

---

• conduct outreach to and education for consumers to introduce them to the options for modern housing, thereby demonstrating to potential producers the size of the market for affordable modernism;

---

Soon we will need to discuss what form "outreach" will take.

quote:

---

Blah.com will exemplify the values that distinguish successful communities of interest in emerging markets: transparency, accountability, openness, fairness, cooperation and civility.

---

I hate to beat on this one. Does it matter that most readers won't know what these terms mean? Am I the only one that feels this way? If so, just ignore me.

posted 07-21-2003 06:03 PM               

Similarly, it is hard for developers and others in the housing industry to know of the consumer demand for modernist housing.

posted 07-22-2003 03:40 AM               

Marshall, this is excellent! One thing I noticed, which I had missed before, though. Where you say, "Membership is free and open to anyone that agrees with our approach..." I think it would be better to say, "Membership is free and open to anyone who is interested in modernism..." instead, as what we have now sounds a little dictatorial, in a way. It sounds like we're telling them they must conform to our philosophy. By saying it's open to all who are interested, I believe we come off sounding more friendly and inviting.

posted 07-22-2003 05:56 AM               

1. The "outreach" discussion neeeds to happen. The results of it are just too tactical for this document. But it is a duscussion that definitely needs to happen. Otherwise, we are just talking to the same small group.

2. Values. Obviously, I think they are important to include, in an abridged form, for space purposes (the shorter the better, for this whole document). Even if they are just words now, they show that we do have them, and the words are farirly accessible. What they mean will actually be defined by how the discussion is conducted, how the association is built, as they have already. So I think it's important to reference these ideas so that consumers and producers have some reference to our values.

Next Steps. Here's what I would recommend:

1. Start a new thread, with this statement as the root, and an invitation to discuss and sign on. We need to have an action item in the next thread, so that at the end of the discussion period we have people who have signed onto this statement.

2. The next to last paragraph should be changed to reference the current discussion, and have folks read it for indepth understanding about how this statement came to be. We should, however, answer specific qhestions about the statement in the new thread, as we will have to articulate and defend these ideas in this an many other forums. (and I think it's OK for anyone to continue to post in this disscussion.)

3. The invitation should be posted in other forums on the net (some ideas have been floated). Obviously the next to last paragraph should have the URL for the new thread.

4. We need to keep track of where the invitation has been posted. This will help when we actually announce the new association.

Did I leave anything out? Gary, do you want to start the next thread, perhaps after waiting a bit for final, final comment?

Marshall

--

You’re invited to an Open House for Affordable Modernism

“I’m looking for housing that is affordable, and modern. I know there must be innovative, well-designed housing out there. I just can’t seem to find it!”
Tracey R., from the Dwell discussion board

Our love for modernist housing is being rekindled as many more people deliberately depart from traditional housing. People want homes that are distinguished by their openness and livability through the use of innovative design, materials and construction methods. And they want modern homes whose cost is comparable to more traditional housing available in their community.

Affordable modernism is no longer an oxymoron! Small, entrepreneurial companies eager to address this emerging market are offering modern housing products. However, the market remains small, and it can be difficult for consumers to find housing that matches their desires. Similarly, it is hard for developers and others in the housing industry to evaluate consumer demand for modernist housing. There is no one best place online to find them all: modern housing designers or developments, consumers or communities.

Blah.com is a service that helps connect the public interested in modern housing to a range of providers, including architects, developers, builders, lenders, and realtors, among others. Our goal is to make modernism more affordable. Blah.com looks forward to a future in which modernist housing is widely available because it is affordable to a majority of home buyers, and it is easy to find in their community.

To realize our mission and vision, Blah.com will initially focus on three broad strategies:
• conduct outreach to and education for consumers to introduce them to the options for modern housing, thereby demonstrating to producers the size of the market for affordable modernism;
• develop a cooperative marketing infrastructure, including conducting market research about consumer demand, for producers of modernist housing; and
• link Blah.com members to each other in geographically-defined markets, connecting modern home buyers to producers -- designers, developers, contractors and realtors, among others.

All of these strategies will reinforce each other, thus continually expanding the market for producers as well as consumers. In the implementation of each of these strategies, Blah.com will exemplify the values that distinguish successful communities of interest in emerging markets: transparency, accountability, openness, fairness, cooperation and civility.

The principle benefit for consumers and producers alike is that they will be able to find each other through Blah.com. For example, a couple interested in building a modern house will be able to more easily find an architect or stock plan to suit their needs. As the Blah.com community grows and becomes more diverse, consumers will similar interests in a geographic market will be able to organize demand for a modernist housing development, while architects or manufacturers will be able to work with local developers to meet localized demand.

Blah.com is a community of consumers and producers of modern housing dedicated to this mission and vision, as well as strategies and values. Membership is free and open to anyone who is interested in modernist housing. Membership includes a free subscription to the Blah.com enewsletter.

You are invited to join Blah.com by participating in our charter discussions on the Dwell discussion board (http://interverse.com/ubb/Forum4/HTML/000173.html). Be sure to invite your friends and colleagues. Feel free post this invitation in any appropriate forum.

For the time being, Blah.com is an informal community organized in the Dwell forum. In the near future, Blah.com will begin work on it’s primary strategies, including establishing an organizational identity, structure and website.

Come to our Open House now to make our new community a place you’d want to live.

posted 07-22-2003 04:37 PM               

I'd be in favor of ModNet as long as it if followed in its first use by an asterisk, and the asterisk is referenced at the bottom of the message with something like "ModNet is the working name for this association. A final name will be determined by its active participants."

posted 07-22-2003 08:19 PM               

Yes, Marshall, I'll post the new thread as soon as everyone has agreed it's ready. It looks fine to me.

posted 07-22-2003 10:42 PM               

Based on experience, I can say that the .info extension is not condusive to the success of a web site.

I strongly advise that whatever name is eventually chosen...that the ubiquitous ".com" be secured. When the goal is to drive potential members to a site, you are doing yourself a disservice by going against the grain. Make a list of high profile ".net" sites and you'll soon see what I mean.

".com" has mind share and many people are not extremely savvy web users. Therefore why place a hurdle for them right out of the gate?

This developing organization is the one of the few instances which I would say that .org could also be used effectively. But that would not preclude me from securing the corresponding .com to protect the organization's brand identity.

I would not buy/use .net in any circumstance other then to simply protect it from poachers and those who may try to set up a site to confuse users (usually for unsavory means).

Even though this organization will be a "network" of designers, contractors, potential home owners, etc., .net was originally conceived (and should be kept) as an extension dedicated to those that provide internet-related services.

Which brings me to the "name" of the organization. In my eye, there are two potential ways the naming could go:

1. A professional sounding name that conveys the mission. Possible even served by an acronym since the mission is not easily distilled into a sound bite.

2. A "brandable" name. A clever or uniquely coined name that would provide great branding potential as the organization gained momentum.

That being said, I am not a big fan of "ModNet". For one, it's too generic. It suffers from a (bad) early internet, but now trite, naming convention (i.e. "cyber"). Very "90's".

Also, using "Net" once again can confuse people. Just for sake of this discussion (not taking into account what domain names are available) using a COM or NET in your company/organization name can muddy the waters more when combined with top level domain extensions. ModNet.com / ModNet.net / ModCom.com / ModCom.net, etc. See how generic and confusing it can become? It doesn't show a savvy understanding of the current state of the internet. I would have expected a name like that 3-5 years ago...but not something to be launched in 2003.

I think that a broader, open-ended discussion should take place in naming the organization. You never know where the perfect name will come from, I would encourage all to make suggestions. You can always pare them down/vote on favorites. As a branding/marketing/advertising professional, I can attest to the importance of a properly developed name when introducing something to the "market".

Also, I would suggest that all potential names be researched for possible copyright and trademark issues.

posted 07-23-2003 04:59 AM               

I also think that the name is central to the brand. And it may be the most important decision this associatin makes, given its nature. So let's not rush into something we don't really have to do right away. We can still discuss the mission statement with others, we can still create website mockups, we can still widen the circle to include more, all without having a permanent name.

posted 07-23-2003 05:30 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by marshallmayer:
The reason I introducded the concept of asterisking ModNet on this document was so that we would not have to make the name decision now. It's too early.

I also think that the name is central to the brand. And it may be the most important decision this associatin makes, given its nature. So let's not rush into something we don't really have to do right away. We can still discuss the mission statement with others, we can still create website mockups, we can still widen the circle to include more, all without having a permanent name.

Marshall

---

I agree it's too early to make a decision on the name.

But it's never really too early to open a dialogue of potential names, even if only as an adjunct to other work. Not rushing into it is the very reason it should be addressed early on in the process, so that you are developing the seed of branding in parallel with the mission statement, etc.

I agree that discussion and refining the mission statement should take the lead, and that a name doesn't have to be set in stone at this point. But IMHO, creating web site mock-ups before the branding is on it's way to being solidified is not the proper procedure. This statement is made having been involved in the branding and online presence of many organizations and companies.

posted 07-23-2003 06:41 AM               

Also, before burning time on web page moc-ups, you really need to develop the architecture. You need solid architecture before developing the navigation, which is a main element to what the site looks like and how it functions. Most important, though, your site needs content.

posted 07-23-2003 07:48 AM               

quote:

---

Originally posted by lavardera:
I like the idea of going forward while the name takes shape. Perhaps it would serve us to go back to Modernist Network which is more of a generic description, rather than the abbrviation ModNet for the time being. This way it does not appear that a name has been choosen.

---